Episode 6: Can We Let the Church Die?

I haven’t been part of an institutional church for years—and I don’t feel guilty about it.

In this episode of What I Do Believe, I talk about why I’ve found real community, teaching, accountability, and sacraments outside of church buildings. I also wrestle with the big critique: that leaving the church is unfaithful. Maybe the more faithful response is to let the institution die and trust in resurrection.

▶️ Listen to the Episode

🔑 Key Takeaways

• Community, teaching, accountability, and sacraments don’t only exist in church buildings.

• Loyalty and “faithfulness” to the institution often miss the point.

• The institutional church can feel like life support, not resurrection.

• Letting go may be the first step toward new life.

• God isn’t locked in a building—God shows up wherever love, hope, and presence break through.

📄 Full Transcript (click to expand)

[00:00:00]

Welcome back to the What I Do Believe podcast, where we talk post deconstruction faith from the lens of no longer criticizing what we don't believe anymore, or the people that do, and we are instead going to focus on moving forward. Focusing on what we do believe. So this is a space for hope.

This is a space for moving forward and, uh, finding a faith that actually works instead of just constantly rehashing the one or the ones that we know don't work anymore. My name is Zach. Thanks for being here and, uh, really appreciate all the support the podcast has gotten over the last couple of weeks.

Thank you for listening. Thank you for being a part of this and, uh, it means a lot. So in my last Substack post I wrote [00:01:00] about accepting loneliness which is, you know, that sense of being spiritually homeless after deconstruction. And for me, and I know it's true for a lot of other people too, that's meant realizing that I really don't quite fit into the church as it usually exists.

At least in my context, the modern American, uh, church.

So I don't fit in that, but I'm still finding God in contemplative practices and contemplative communities in silence, small groups, prayer, meditation, things like that. And, uh, today I wanna talk about kind of that, that dynamic of, you know, how I am very much still experiencing God pretty powerfully in silence and solitude in, uh, groups of people focused on that.

Uh, but I haven't felt the need to regularly attend a larger church community or an institutional church [00:02:00] in a long, long time. Uh, it's been several years. Since I have walked inside of a church building, um, you know, to, to attend a worship service or attend any type of thing like that, other than, you know, just visiting family or, you know, little moments like that where you go just because of the people that you're with.

But on the whole have not to walked into a church willingly in the past couple years. And, uh, yeah, I kinda wanna talk about why that is and why I'm okay with that. And. Maybe give some insights for other people who might be in a similar situation. Now, when I say I haven't been part of an institutional church for years, a lot of times, you know, I'll be met with some reasons that people bring up, or, uh, shoulds, right?

Reasons for why I should be, uh, why I should be a part of a church, even though, you know, I'm feeling the things I'm feeling or [00:03:00] experiencing the things I'm experiencing. So there are definitely some usual shoulds. Um, the first one is you should be a part of a church because you need community. Uh, and you're right, I do.

Um, but I already have it. Uh, my closest friendships, spiritual direction, uh, small house, church community I've been a part of give me more real community than a Sunday crowd ever has. Some people say you need teaching. Um, and yeah, sure. I actually agree with that. I love learning. Uh, but I've gotten way more depth from books and conversations and podcasts, uh, and personal study than probably I've ever gotten from a, you know, sermon in a conventional church setting, and least one that I've ever been to.

Um, some people say you need accountability. And, uh, yeah, I have that too. Uh, it comes from people who actually know me and walk with me. Um, not, you know, strangers sitting in a pew. And, uh, some people will [00:04:00] say, you need the sacraments. Yeah. And again, I say, you know what, yes, you're right. I do. Um, actually in our house church community, we share the Eucharist every single week.

Uh, and it's been more meaningful than almost anything I have experienced in an institutional setting, whether that's, you know, passing the plate or, or walking up to the stage. I'm not, not dogging those things. I'm just saying, uh, I haven't gone without, uh, the sacraments. Um, so those are the usual shoulds.

And obviously I've just given my responses to those. They, they don't carry too much weight for me anymore. Um, but then there's the big one that I haven't touched on yet, and this is the one that gets thrown at me more often than not in all kinds of different contexts, but it's the one that focuses on faithfulness.

Um, you need to be faithful. You know, faithful to Christ's body, faithful to the church. It's about loyalty. It's [00:05:00] about, you know, getting over your frustrations and just choosing to be loyal despite all of that, you know, and then sometimes people throw out there, you know, if all the good people leave the church, then no one's gonna be left to reform it.

No one's gonna be left to improve it. No one's gonna be left to, uh, help it move and grow, and so on and so forth. And I get where this idea comes from. I get the idea of loyalty and commitment and the sense that, you know, staying, um, even when it's hard is what faithfulness really looks like. Um, you know, a lot of times people throw in like the marriage metaphor, you know, stay married even when it's hard or, you know, stay in relationship with friends and family and, you know, you have to stay committed to those things.

'cause if you just follow how you feel about it all the time. Then, you know, you're probably gonna break off those relationships when, you know, a little bit of a commitment would've enabled you to push past [00:06:00] the challenges and, you know, find benefit on both sides. And, and I understand that. I I do get it.

And you know, to, to be fair, there are people who are doing that. Um, there are churches trying to move in a new direction. Uh, some are leaning, more contemplative, are, are slowing down. They're making space for prayer and moving away from performance driven faith. And I don't wanna ignore that. Um, I don't wanna ignore that.

There are churches, good churches who are trying to move in that direction and that there are good people who are a part of that and working towards that and exercising a lot of patience and, uh, and commitment to that. And so that's good. Um, that, that kind of reform or that kind of work, I often think of the metaphor of, you know, steering like a, a massive ship.

Um, maybe it's like a cruise [00:07:00] liner or an aircraft carrier or something like that. And those ships are so big that they can't just make you know, really quick, right or left turns or, or u-turns, you know, when, when something that huge needs to change course, uh, it takes miles and miles and miles. And it's a, a slow, you know, gradual turn, uh, you know, moving in a different direction.

And maybe the comparison point for the church is that, you know, when a church is a big institution or a big, a big thing like that, um, if it's gonna change course it's gonna take miles and miles. You know, it's gonna take years and years, it's gonna take decades. Um, and maybe that's what's happening, probably is what's happening.

Some large churches or the institutional church are turning. And, uh, that's good. I'm not gonna say that's not happening, but here's the thing. Um, I discerned a long time ago and still feel pretty confidently that, uh, I, yeah, that's not for me to do. I do not feel called to sit on the poop deck [00:08:00] waiting for the big ship to swing around.

Um, I don't have the patience to spend my life hoping that the ship eventually completes its turn and. Moves in a new direction.

Uh, because honestly, the way I see it, that might not be true too. Um, sometimes it doesn't feel like the ship is turning at all. Um, sometimes I think we need to look at the situation of the modern church. The institutional church, particularly in, in America, and just admit that we've already hit the iceberg.

Just admit that the damage is done and that the ship is going down. Um, I think it's very possible that that's true too. Um, and in fact, that's kind of the way I see it. I'm not willing to make definitive statements or claims or predictions about what I know is true with regard to that, but really does seem to me like the [00:09:00] iceberg has already been hit.

The damage is done, the ship is going down. And for me, and maybe for others too, I don't know, but the, the faithful response here isn't denial. Uh, it's not pretending everything can be patched up if we just rearrange the deck chairs or keep the engines running. Um, it's the honesty and courage. To name what's true, which is, you know, to stop trying to course correct and, uh, just admit that we're sinking.

And that leads me to another image, another metaphor that's not, not a ship metaphor, but, um, run with, you know, go with me here. Uh, metaphor of life support. You know, so much of my experience with the church, you know, especially the last couple years. Uh, it is just felt like, you know, keeping the life support going.

Um, feels like plugging into the machines and tracking the numbers and maintaining the programs and just keeping it alive. Um, keeping it twitching just [00:10:00] enough to be able to say it's still alive. Um, but that, but that's not, that's not life, you know, that's not resurrection, that's not renewal. That's, you know, uh, artificial survival and I can't help but wonder.

If we've kept the institution on life support for too long, um, and, and I actually think it's possible that maybe the institution needs to just, maybe we just need to let it die. Um, maybe we can let it die because. You know, the gospel has never been about keeping things alive at all costs. It's never been about avoiding death, dodging suffering.

It's never been about, you know, maintaining power and control. Um, that's not resurrection. Uh, that's, you know, that's, that's fear. And, uh, despite the statistics of how things are kind of going downhill for the American church, you know, it, it seems to [00:11:00] me like people just can't let go. Of it because they're afraid.

Um, people in these churches are afraid of losing their influence. Um, they're afraid of losing political power that's tied to the church. They're afraid of what happens, uh, when the institution crumbles. And they've come to believe that, you know, God only works through these big movements and through structures and through control and through institutions.

Uh, but the reality is. You know, that's, that's antithetical to the gospel. I mean, the, the whole story of Jesus points us towards death and resurrection. Uh, we can't get new life without passing through death first. Uh, we can't experience resurrection if we refuse to let things die. And that's why, you know, if the church is dying, I don't think we have to try to scramble to save it and keep it on life support and, and keep all that going.[00:12:00]

I think that what's always been good and true and beautiful about the church, you know, for the past 2000 years, you know, the, the prayers, the sacraments, the contemplative practices, the spirit alive amongst God's people. I don't think these things are going to disappear. I think that these things will, will resurrect, uh, into new life.

Uh, if the church dies, you know, if the institution dies, it'll resurrect to a new life, new freedom. Um, without them, the machinery and the, the heavy weight of the institution that's kept them down. Um, but, you know, we can't experience that, that new life, that resurrection until we stop keeping the institution alive on, on these machines.

You know, and maybe that's. Perhaps one of the biggest reasons that I don't feel the need to be a part of the institutional church right now. Um, [00:13:00] I'm ready to accept the possibility that it's dying and, um, ready to just accept that and, and get on with the resurrection. And, uh, from my perspective, that's what's happening.

Um, I don't feel the need to delay it or postpone it, and I don't want to spend time. And energy resisting the inevitable. Um, I want to live into the resurrection that's, that's already breaking in. So if you're still in a church, um, I don't say all of this to judge you. Um, if you feel like it's right for you to stay and be a part of it, you wanna stay, you wanna be a part of it.

That's great. I trust you. Um, I'm, I'm not saying you need to leave, I'm not trying to convince you of that at all, actually. Um, you know, your, your presence and involvement there might be planting seeds for something that I don't see, or I'll never see, you know, and, and that's great. Um, again, I'm, I'm not trying to convince anybody to do anything differently.

I'm just sharing my experience [00:14:00] so. You know, if you're still there, um, I'm, I'm glad for you, uh, assuming that you are there, 'cause you wanna be there and you feel called to be there, and maybe you can understand a little bit why, um, I'm not there or why, you know, other people are not there. And if you're like me and you have stepped away, uh, you're not alone.

Um, you don't have to feel guilty. Um, God is not locked in a building or in a denomination. Uh, wherever you are, uh, faithfulness does not only look like clinging to these institutions. Um, I think it looks like showing up where God's presence is alive and in whatever form it takes and, you know, that's the kind of church that I want to be faithful to.

So, time for the shameless plugs at the end of the episode. Thank you so much for listening to the What I Do Believe podcast. It really means a lot to me that you [00:15:00] have, uh, given me your time and attention, the most valuable things that you have. So thank you, thank you, thank you. If you like the show, feel free to share this episode with somebody else.

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Definitely interested to hear how people are engaging with what I'm sharing and would love [00:16:00] to know what the feedback is, assuming that it's kind and respectful. Thanks for listening. Take care. See you next time. Peace. Goodbye.