Episode 8: “Traveler, There is No Path”

Faith changes.

Sometimes slowly. Sometimes all at once. Sometimes in ways you did not expect and cannot fully explain.

This episode marks a shift for the podcast too.

More conversations instead of monologues. More humor. More hope. More depth that feels alive instead of heavy.

In this episode of What I Do Believe, I’m joined by my friend Julianna Tate Zoch, an Ignatian trained spiritual director and fellow MDiv. We trained in the same program, and we’ve both spent years navigating what it looks like when certainty changes but the desire for meaning does not go away.

We talk about grief, vocation, institutional religion, spiritual freedom, and the quiet ways new life keeps showing up after loss. We also laugh quite a bit, which feels important.

At the end, Julianna reads the poem that gave this episode its name, Traveler, There Is No Path.

▶️ Listen to the Episode

🔑 Key Takeaways

Faith can continue even when certainty changes.

Spiritual growth often happens outside familiar structures.

Grief and transformation are deeply connected.

Hope sometimes shows up quietly over time.

New life often appears in places we did not expect.

📚 Links & Resources

Julianna’s Website

Matthew McConaughey on the Blocks Podcast with Neal Brennan

“Traveler, There Is No Path” (commonly attributed to Antonio Machado)

📄 Full Transcript (click to expand)

Traveler, There is No Path w/ Julianna Tate Zoch === Introduction --- [00:00:00] I know, I know it's been a minute. Um, actually it's been since September, so more like several minutes. But I'm really excited to be back with the first episode in a while, hopefully the first episode of many to come, and, uh, honestly, back with a new direction for the show. We're switching things up and this season is going to be way more conversational, more fun, and hopefully more insightful because of it. So today's guest is my very good friend, juliana is a fellow spiritual director and we have a lot in common. We both got our Master of Divinity degrees from the same school and the same program. We're both trained Ignatian spiritual directors and in this conversation we're gonna talk about faith deconstruction. And ultimately what it means to keep believing, not ins uncertainty, but in possibility. We're gonna talk about grief, anger, hope, and why new life keeps showing up in the most unexpected places. So let's get [00:01:00] right to it. ​ The Polished City --- Zachary: it could be helpful to, I would love to hear it and then that way people know who you are on, on the podcast, just why you're here, why, why would I invite Julianna Tate Zoch: Sure. Zachary: on this? So. Julianna Tate Zoch: Just, just for fun, just to see what happens, you know? So, yeah, I don't mind. Um, Zachary: Leave all your trauma out of it though. Julianna Tate Zoch: yeah, yeah, yeah. Zachary: Yeah. Julianna Tate Zoch: positive things. No, like formative experiences here. Yeah. I haven't thought, I haven't thought about it in a while, like how I would go about kind of organizing it. I used to talk about it as, um, kind of before and after a crater came crashing down. Um, and over the years, the metaphor that I've used has changed a bit from a crater, like a meteor crashing down, forming [00:02:00] a crater, and, um, has become kind of more this imagery of, you know, I, I feel like I grew up in this like really nice polished city, right? Where, and this is all kind of within the realm of, of my experience of faith. So it was like, you know, I knew what was expected of me. I knew, um, I knew, I knew what the expectations were of, okay, this is how you're gonna, you know, read your Bible. This is how you're gonna volunteer, this is how you're gonna talk to your friends, or how you're gonna act at school. And particularly in high school, I became really, really good at it. And I, and I loved it. It wasn't just about like, let me, um, put on a good face or impress anyone. I loved it. I loved that. On Sundays, I would, you know, go to the nine 30 service, and then I would volunteer to teach, you know, a first grade class during the 1130 service. And then I would run down to like the Wawa down the street and get a sub and go back and start setting up for middle school [00:03:00] youth group, and then kind of hang around and be present and then attend high school. Zachary: Been Julianna Tate Zoch: said something and I couldn't hear you. Zachary: been around that long. I, I thought it was a new thing. Julianna Tate Zoch: Oh. Yes, Wawa the iconic best gas station. Uh, I don't care about Bucky's. Listen, Bucky's is cool, Ben. I like it. But Zachary: gas stations, it's cool. Julianna Tate Zoch: When it comes to Wawa, I am, Zachary: I Julianna Tate Zoch: I am into gas stations. Zachary: learned something new Julianna Tate Zoch: Um, so interesting. No Wawa's been around, at least for as long as I've been alive. I've always known, I've always known the good Wawas to go to Zachary: towards, Julianna Tate Zoch: in my county. Zachary: my neck of the woods. Julianna Tate Zoch: Yeah, they are very East Coast. My cousin even, they're kind of like Mid-Atlantic, east coast, at least when I was growing up. 'cause my cousin in Florida had no idea what they were growing up and, uh, the whole thing. Zachary: Yeah. Sorry to interrupt your, Julianna Tate Zoch: so yeah, so I'd go to Wawa. No, [00:04:00] listen. Zachary: So Julianna Tate Zoch: Yeah, that's what the people are here for. Okay. All this faith stuff, whatever. Where can we get a sub? Where can we go in between watching first graders and helping set for sixth graders? Have I got a deal for you? It's a Wawa. I've never had a pub sub. I don't know what that is. Oh, okay. Public. Actually, no, I haven't. And even when I lived in Tennessee, the closest Publix was like 40 minutes away, so Zachary: Well, you'll have to try Julianna Tate Zoch: it didn't go. Zachary: to try Julianna Tate Zoch: They had really good chocolate ice cream. Okay. You know what, here's what we'll do. You'll get a sub from Publix. I'll get a sub from Wawa. We'll meet in like Zachary: Okay. Julianna Tate Zoch: Virginia will be about halfway Zachary: do Julianna Tate Zoch: and we'll swap Zachary: I've, I've Julianna Tate Zoch: and then Zachary: uh, Julianna Tate Zoch: it'll be great Zachary: and stuff like that. I uh, visited in a while, Julianna Tate Zoch: there. Go. Whoa, whoa, whoa. It's an exciting time. [00:05:00] Why not? Zachary: It's such a peaceful time in DC so we should definitely go Julianna Tate Zoch: Yes, yes. Very serene. Zachary: Nothing happening Julianna Tate Zoch: Nothing happening, so. Nope. Nowhere. Zachary: you were, uh, telling a very serious and. Uh, heartfelt story, so please keep going. Julianna Tate Zoch: Well, that's all right. That's all right. Science and Faith --- Julianna Tate Zoch: So I was very good at it going to Wawa, but predominantly being in church, doing all the things. Um, you know, I remember there's one day. It must have been my senior year. I, I was homeschooled and so I was taking some classes at a community college and I was taking an astronomy class and I remember posting a picture on my Instagram, even in a Starbucks of course, of my Bible on one side and my astronomy homework on like next to it, on the other side and saying something like, isn't it so [00:06:00] cool how like God and science can work together? Like, isn't it so cool how you can study these things? Um, Zachary: So cool. Julianna Tate Zoch: and okay, yeah, it took like, it's so cool. But like, it was just, you know, uh, I, it was kind of like a science isn't gonna compromise my faith type of Zachary: Did Julianna Tate Zoch: type of thing. Zachary: where people Julianna Tate Zoch: Um, Zachary: to make them fit for you? Julianna Tate Zoch: what I remember. The only thing I remember is my dad pulling up a video. It was, Zachary: Yeah. Julianna Tate Zoch: Louis Giglio. I don't know if it was like passion era, but it was one where he, it was, it was some, you know, big stadium filled, you know, sermon he was giving where the video on the screen was kind of about like, here's like the size of the universe. And so it was like, you know, here's Earth and then here's this other thing and here's this other thing and just how expansive it is. And then he started talking about, and here's [00:07:00] this, here's this clip, here's this sound that the universe makes. And he starts playing it. And I don't remember exactly what it sounded like, but then he starts, um, playing with it, the song like, how great is our God? And they perfectly line up and they compliment each other so well. Um, and that's probably one of the things I remember most of like can see like, oh Zachary: 'cause I think Julianna Tate Zoch: my gosh, you were there. Zachary: Chris Tomlin did, you know, like a tour and I'm pretty sure he had Louie Giglio come along 'cause they're, uh, they're buddies. So anyways, yeah, I remember that. I remember, Um, being in Julianna Tate Zoch: mm-hmm. Zachary: And having this guy get up and to explain how if you, it was like astronomy is what made me you sharing that. What made me think of it, trying to explain how Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: chart the stars back a certain, 2000 years, then there is [00:08:00] scientific evidence for the star that, you know, shine down on Bethlehem and, and just different things like that. And even at the time I was like. Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: I don't know. I, I think you're, I think you're missing the point of that, uh, brief narrative there. My guy and I wasn't even, you know, I was probably like 19, 20 then. Hadn't really thought very deeply about all this stuff anyways at that point. But anyways, that I just made me think of how there was people all throughout high school and college who seemed to really try to like force these things to work together, I think there's ways in which it does work together. You know, there's, it's like, yeah, this doesn't contradict, this is fine, that sometimes people force it. I think like, uh, cutting off the, a piece of Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Right. It's kind of like, Zachary: together or something like that. Julianna Tate Zoch: mm-hmm. Right, right. It's like you can either, you know, vehemently deny that you know what science says [00:09:00] is true, you know, evolution, classic example, right? You can either be like, no, there is no such thing as evolution because it was, you know. Whatever it was, how God exactly did all of it within a set seven day period. Um, so it's either, you know, no, we don't interact or we take all of these like, vast things and we really like make sure that they're perfectly in line. And I, I think the Louis Giglio thing also talked about how there's something in our bodies, like some, like on the me molecular level with like essentially lieu of the body, like what hold cells together is like in the shape of a cross. And it was like c like Christ holds all things together even in your blood. Zachary: my gosh. Julianna Tate Zoch: And uh, Zachary: uh, I just don't, Julianna Tate Zoch: you know, I'm not a scientist who's to say, Zachary: indescribable. that Julianna Tate Zoch: you know, Zachary: that was the [00:10:00] name of that, that album. Julianna Tate Zoch: I was trying to think of the next word and I couldn't remember it. I was like, oh, this would be perfect if I could remember it, but my brain didn't help us. Zachary: my rule for the podcast, which is, uh, not being too critical of anything and just, you know, hopeful Julianna Tate Zoch: All right, Zachary: uh, optimistic. Julianna Tate Zoch: enough. Zachary: so anyways, you, like me, took the, uh, Instagram photos of your books laid out and example of Julianna Tate Zoch: Yes. Yes. Zachary: this is what it looks like and aren't these things cool and all that stuff. Julianna Tate Zoch: Right. And I loved it and I think it had value. I think while there are many things that I haven't held on to, I think there was something valuable about how that period of my life I was taking on faith for my own. I was saying, okay, well, you know, I am taking astronomy because I love it and I am wanting to, [00:11:00] to study. Like I had this desire to study scripture in a. In the way that it was being offered to me. And so like, that was, that was beautiful to me at the time. And that's why it was so challenging when I started having questions about all of that. Walking Outside the City --- Julianna Tate Zoch: So I'm, I'm the, within the metaphor that I said I use, I'm in this, like this city, it's very clean. Everyone knows like where they belong. Everyone knows, like, you walk on the sidewalk, you go to this place or that place. Like you, there's no questions about like how things are supposed to work. Except the one like big rule is like, don't go outside of the city. Because if you leave the city, like people don't come back, people don't come back from that. Then we have to like be really sad for them. Their moms are crying and nobody wants to make their mom cry and like it's just don't do it. And so around my sophomore year of high school, [00:12:00] this was in 20 13, 20 14 was my sophomore year. I don't exactly know what happened, but it all kind of came crashing down. Like in some ways it felt like I didn't, I didn't realize I had started to kind of walk outside of the city, but then all of a sudden I was in this forest that I'd never seen before. And it was, it was exciting because it was new, but it was also so scary because it was new and it was dark and there were sounds I hadn't heard before and I didn't know what was around the corner. And, um, yeah, just really, really frightening in many ways. And, and because I had loved how my experience of faith had been for, especially for like, that concentrated four years of high school and I went to college for preaching and, and church leadership preaching and youth ministry. You know, I, I almost didn't, I was [00:13:00] the only girl in the church leadership part. There was. Two other girls in my, in my year who I think were in youth ministry. But it was pretty, it was pretty uncommon, and I was, I was pretty fortunate that, um, while my university would not have made any statements about supporting women as pastors, as preachers, almost all of my professors were very supportive and very encouraging, which is not always the experience. So I'm very grateful for that. Um, but that's also part of Zachary: the Bible faculty at most places are always willing to go further than the theological boundaries of the uni, the larger Julianna Tate Zoch: mm-hmm. Zachary: But at some ways too, they're only, as you know, they're only as progressive as they're allowed to be. So it's usually a little bit further Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: but. You go too far and, and then it's, you might lose your job or Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: So I don't, Julianna Tate Zoch: [00:14:00] Right. Right. It's, ugh, I don't envy the balance that they must have to, Zachary: understood Julianna Tate Zoch: to strike. Zachary: to, to walk that line. Um, I've always just been Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: oh, here's the line. Let's cross it. Julianna Tate Zoch: Right. Zachary: Show me the Julianna Tate Zoch: What's a line who needs it? Right. Right. Like, I don't wanna waste our time. Just show me where the line is and I'll just, Zachary: Yeah. Julianna Tate Zoch: just hop on over. That's fine. Yeah. I, uh, I think that partially what, what started me kind of meandering beyond the, the boundaries was that I was the only woman in, again, that, that church leadership, um, major and my first, within my first week of school. You know, because there are so few women who are, at least at that time, who, who were majoring in youth ministry and church leadership and preaching the upperclassmen kind of knew who you were. When you came in, they [00:15:00] might not have really like known your name, but they had an idea of like, oh, this girl is in our program. And so there was one day I was walking across campus to like the cafeteria building and this other girl was walking the other way. And, and I had no idea who she was. And she looked at me and she goes, Hey, like you are a preaching in youth ministry major, right? And I said, oh, yeah. And she goes, oh, well, you know, women can't do that. And then just keeps walking. I found out later that she was also a preaching in youth ministry major, but I had no, I, like, I, I had no idea. I also, I knew that I had never seen a woman be a preacher, but I actually wasn't fully aware at the time that it was a really big controversy. So like I wasn't in on the joke that she thought I was in on. Zachary: it was a Julianna Tate Zoch: Um, and I, Zachary: or she was trying to Julianna Tate Zoch: right. She was like, oh, haha, like you and me. Right. She's like, you know, we're in this, you and I, you know, we [00:16:00] shouldn't, but I was like, I don't know who you are, but, uh, I didn't know there was a joke. I didn't know there was one. Uh, anyway, so without like rambling too far about like, you know how I got there? I, I did, Questions Begin to Cascade --- Julianna Tate Zoch: I started going, okay, well if I'm a, if I'm a woman in ministry and people don't think that, that, that's okay, then like, what does that mean? And then what does it mean? I had lived a pretty, um. Pretty comfortable life. So I even as far as just general sexism goes, I hadn't really thought about it or considered it. And so then it opened my eyes to, oh, okay, well if people in my life who are, you know, leaders or authorities that I respect are saying like, Hey, there's no, there's no wage gap, there's no like gender wage gap difference. And then I'm seeing these things that say maybe there is, okay, then what does that mean? And if that's true, [00:17:00] then what does that mean about the L-G-B-T-Q community? Who I've always been told is, was not God's favorite to put the opinions I was taught lightly. Right? And so, well, what about that? Is that true or do I wanna change my mind about that? Okay, well, what about institutional? Like systemic racism? I've always been taught that that's not really a modern day. Continuing issue is that, so it just kind of, every question led to more questions and I, and I didn't know because I had been brought up in this world of behave the right way to, to continue securing your spot. I was never taught how to engage questions. And maybe the people who did try to teach me that maybe I, maybe I wasn't in a place to learn it, I don't know. But the framework I was given didn't lend [00:18:00] itself to not being afraid Zachary: yeah, Julianna Tate Zoch: questions entered the picture. Zachary: experience. it happened when I was like seven or eight. like, man, if Santa Claus isn't real, then what about the tooth fairy? And if the tooth fairy's not real, Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm Zachary: then what about the Easter Bunny? And if the Easter Bunny's not Julianna Tate Zoch: mm-hmm. Zachary: is Jesus real? So, I Julianna Tate Zoch: Right. Zachary: It was a Julianna Tate Zoch: Slippery slope. Zachary: which my, you know, community seemed fine me to go down that slope so far as I didn't start questioning Jesus. But all jokes aside, absolutely you start to question one thing that you were always told, Nope, this is certain this is true. Um, don't go outside. And then as soon as you, you question that one thing, it leads to, well if, if this, then this, what about this? And then, I mean, [00:19:00] that's a pretty, Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: Mm-hmm. Right. Because once, once you realize, oh, I'm not so sure. And I've, Julianna Tate Zoch: The Campus Ministry Interview --- Julianna Tate Zoch: there was one time I was, I was interviewing for a campus ministry job and it was af it was as my, um, master's program was coming to an end, my Master's of Divinity program. That is. And um, you know, during the interview, during the second interview, they asked me, okay, what if a student comes to you and says that like they think they might be gay or whatever their version was of that question. And in the interview I said, you know, I think that my role would be to help students, to help students think. So I would be happy to, you know, equip them with, you know, to have conversations, to have them have different resources to explore like this topic. Um, but I don't think my job is to tell them what to think. It's to [00:20:00] help them think and they. You know, seemed fine at that answer. And then the next day I got an email that said, Hey, I know you asked if we had any, you know, other questions or concerns at the end of the interview, and I should have said something, but I didn't. And really, here's this. Like, we, we need to know, you know, the, the person said, I agree with you that you're, that the job isn't to tell students what to think, but we still need to know what you think about this. And so I sent them back, you know, okay, well here's, here's how I've, you know, I've landed in like an affirming camp. I, I don't, uh, have any problems with that. And here's how I've gotten there. Here's, you know, the, on the scholarship side, how I've kind of worked out, you know, the, the scriptural language and here's how I thought about the cultural components. And ultimately I said, and also. I think if you really want to, you can make an argument for either side. I think you can look at scripture from a lens that lets you [00:21:00] say, no, this is wrong. I think you can look at scripture from a lens that says, no, actually I think this is okay. And so if the question, if the question we're really asking is, am I going to embody a theology that that is loving and that that follows like, what I think is true about like God being a God of love, or if I'm gonna embody a theology that literally leads people to commit suicide, like, I'm gonna go with love. Like if I, if I'm choosing between two options that I think you really can argue equally. I think you can like, make things line up to, to feel like, you know, you can convince people of either one. I'm gonna go with a loving, the loving way. Zachary: Which is Julianna Tate Zoch: Um. Zachary: don't like the, the word, you know, biblical and using that as an adjective to describe a position or a, [00:22:00] you know, an interpretation as though, well, if this is the biblical interpretation or this is biblical marriage, or biblical, whatever it is, then it's the right one. like there's all kinds of shit that's biblical. You know, polygamy is biblical. Child sacrifice is biblical. Um, is biblical, right? It's like just something being biblical. If that's your, your standard for, you know, whether or not it's a good idea, like you're gonna justify all kinds of bad shit, I think is Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: speaking largely has uh, happened. So anyways, we could have a whole episode on that, but I think that's, I think you're right. Julianna Tate Zoch: Yeah. Yeah. Zachary: you Julianna Tate Zoch: So it's, it's just interesting, you know, how you, how. I totally got the job been doing every years. Um, no. They sent me back an email that said, thank you so much. You clearly have thought about this [00:23:00] in depth. We are not going to continue forward with you as a candidate. It has nothing to do with your answer, but here is a book that we would recommend you read. And it was some book about not believing what I believed. Basically. It was like, you know, I said, okay, so it has nothing to do with that, Zachary: But if you had Julianna Tate Zoch: but you'd like me to read this book about Zachary: you Julianna Tate Zoch: that. Zachary: well, we're now, we're concerned about your Julianna Tate Zoch: Right? But let's convince you. Zachary: about, Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just, yeah. It, it was, Zachary: yeah. Julianna Tate Zoch: it was disappointing. And you know, it's. I remember as I was, as I was figuring out, well, what am I gonna say back, you know, in the interview, I wasn't trying to skirt around saying what I believed. Um, I just, it was just true. I don't think my job is to tell people what to think and they didn't ask me specifically what I think. They asked me what I would do [00:24:00] with this student. And so, you know, as I had this email with the direct question of what they really wanted to know, I could have said something different. But then if I had gotten the job that way, I would've never been able to be myself and never have been able to pastor the students in the way that, that I embody what it means to be a pastor. And so, you know, you, Zachary: I had so Julianna Tate Zoch: just a balance, right? Of. Zachary: coming out of the M Div and so many different interviews where. Going into it, I was like, all right, I'm either going to have to tell them what they want to hear so I can get a job or be honest so that I can, you know, live with integrity and, and minister integrity. And I don't know the answer. I, I used to probably would've said what I'm about to say with more certainty about what I know is true. And, and I [00:25:00] don't know that this is true, but it makes me wonder, you know, if you are somebody in ministry who's gotten a pretty good theological education. I mean, it seems to me like we said, you know, uh, if you're have had a faculty position at a university, you're only, as, you know, you can only be as outspoken on things as you're allowed to be. And I, Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: you know, working with and interacting with lots of preachers and pastors and ministers, a lot of them are. Way more open-minded and think things very differently than maybe their eldership or their leadership, thinks Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: like, how much are you struggling by having to hold back or compromise just so that you can be employed somewhere and continue to have a, and, and not necessarily as, is that a bad thing? You know? I mean, maybe the mindset is like, okay, I'm gonna hold back so that I can be here and do good, you know? And it's not all about just always Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: the [00:26:00] agenda, but I think definitely think there's times where you need to speak out and maybe some people don't just for the sake of maintaining their employment, which again, it's not like, oh, you sold out. It's just like, Hey, this is how I'm supporting myself and my family. So it's, it's not entirely, Julianna Tate Zoch: Right. There's a real risk. Yeah. There's a, you know, people. People have real things at stake of, okay, how do I balance the things that are, that are all here, that are all true? At the same time, it's true that I don't wanna, you know, perpetuate this belief. And it's also true that if I lose my job, I don't know what my family's gonna do. And if I lose my job for this reason, can I find another job in the church? And if I can't, there was for a while, I told my husband, I was like, I feel like I've made myself unhirable because I got very particular ministry education and then I worked in a handful of food service [00:27:00] jobs. And then I was trying to figure out, well, what do I, what do I do? Where do I go from here? And if you can't, if, if I wasn't going to try to kind of mold myself into something to get a standard, you know, ministry job, then. You know, I couldn't even get a job at a Barnes and Noble because I had a master's degree. They wouldn't, like I was overqualified and underqualified for everything all at the same time. Zachary: There we Part of the story is how you prayed for years, and then one night God came to you in a dream and said, I know the plans I have for you to prosper. You give you a hope in a Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: and then the perfect Came into your awareness and they Julianna Tate Zoch: Just magically appeared. It was crazy. Zachary: to be fully yourself and you're thriving. Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Zachary: been, I mean, that's the only way the story could end, right? [00:28:00] Yeah, Feeling Like a Fraud --- Julianna Tate Zoch: I think that's a wrap. I think we covered it. Um, unfortunately, no. What happened next is, um, I spent all of college feeling like a fraud because I, because I was the only woman in my major, I and my professors were very encouraging. I, I would get very positive feedback, a whole lot of encouragement. And, you know, I had one teacher who told me that, you know, he, I hadn an internship and I hadn't done all of the typical things. And he goes, you know, the question is, are we gonna give you a B or an a? And I, you know, I think that, you know, we're gonna give you an A because you know you're gonna be one of the ones who, who goes out and changes the church. And that's so encouraging. I. I picked the church I did my internship at [00:29:00] because I knew that they would be the ones who could handle me with my questions. They were the only church I knew of at that time, like in where I was, that I would be safe for whatever, you know, whatever came up within me as a reaction to having an internship at a church. Um, and that was just hard because you, I, 'cause I, when I preach, I feel more sure than ever about like faith. That's like the moment where I think, oh actually yes, this is, this is in my bones. This is something that, you know, that I'm really gonna hang on to. So I would love that and I would get positive feedback about that. And then I would go home and think, I don't know if I can keep doing this. I don't know if I can, I dunno if I can keep living like this. I don't know if, if this version of God that is really focused on rules and doing it right and. Excludes people and is used for power and, and [00:30:00] all these things. If that's the God that's real, then I'm gonna have to walk away from all of this, right? Like, I don't, I actually don't, I don't want that. And so those were the, the questions I was, I was wrestling with the realities I was wrestling with. Um, Starting the Master's Program --- Julianna Tate Zoch: and I really continued doing that. You know, I kind of started in that 2013, 14, and then in 2019 I started the Master's of Divinity program. And really I started, 'cause I, I did feel like it was time I, I wasn't sure what to do. I was still really uncertain about faith. But I'd come across authors like Rachel, Hal Evans, who, especially at that time was really, really helping people navigate. Like, what do you do when what you thought was true doesn't feel so true anymore. And so I was feeling kind of encouraged, but also. Still very aware of how I didn't fit in any of the places I used to fit anymore. And so I started considering doing a [00:31:00] Master's of Divinity. And really I started the program at Lipscomb thinking that I probably wouldn't finish it. I thought, you know, this feels like the next right step, but it might be that in two years I finish this program and graduate. It also might be that I get a semester or two semesters into it and I realize, oh actually I do have to let go of all of this. This actually doesn't work for me anymore and I'm done. And it like, for those, you know, six years, 2013 to 2019, it really felt like every day was just putting off the inevitable. I really thought it's just a matter of time before the, before I have to accept Zachary: Mm-hmm. I, yeah, I, um, at first I was managing a pizza shop, is what my job was. It was a local pizza shop owned by, by a local dairy. They had an ice cream store, and then the pizza place was next door. I had to wear like [00:32:00] a, a red gingham dress and a specific shade of red lipstick Hmm. Julianna Tate Zoch: for every shift. And, uh, it was not my standard look, let's just say that Zachary: is Julianna Tate Zoch: my mom got a real kick out of it when I sent her the, you know, not that I'm gonna stand around. It's, uh, I don't have any little Polaroids or anything on my desk, otherwise I'd pick one up. And, uh, so at first, you know, I, I remember sitting down the first semester and, you know, planning my days out to the minute because I was managing the shop and you, you know, we had to do the certain amount of, um, hours at a. Uh, I was, I was actually at my undergrad university at the time for my, oh my gosh, what was that called? It's not an internship field experience. Zachary: practicum. Julianna Tate Zoch: practicum. Um, and then here's, here's, I'll tell you how, um, midway through the [00:33:00] program, we ended up, my husband and I ended up moving into basically an in-law suite that is at my parents' house. And, let's see, it's a, it's a big pivot, so I'm trying to think how to lead into it. The 'Slow Down' Story --- Julianna Tate Zoch: So I, I started the program and started being given tools to experience God in a slower way, in a way that was, you know, more, um. You don't come into it with expectations. You just come into it with, okay, well what, what might God be saying? What, what do I want? God, I didn't know I could want a specific thing from God, but what do I want in this? And so being kind of in tune with, with those more subtle things. And so there was one day that I was at the on campus and there was a chapel service and I was, my role was a graduate assistant to the dean of Chapel. And so at the end of this chapel service, the prompt was to spend the [00:34:00] last like 15 minutes that is normally within chapel and just walk, basically do a prayer walk around the campus. I'm pretty much spent like the majority of the walk just kind of being like, I don't really know about this. I'm not super, I'm not like super praying for the campus. For God to be here doing things I just like didn't feel comfortable. Um, and then, so basically I spent the whole time with my mind racing and just trying to, trying to be open to not getting in my car and going home early, trying to just finish the allotted time. And at the, as I was, you know, making kind of my final turn back around, I just all of a sudden heard slow down and I thought, all right, so that was me, and I'm just gonna [00:35:00] not think too much about that, but just in case I'll walk a little slower. Not a big deal. So I started walking a little slower, and then I, and then again, and like I didn't, and I didn't hear like an audible thing. It was just like a very clear thought in my mind. So then again, just that clear thought in my mind of slowed down and I go, okay, I. Funny coincidence, I made that second strong thought happen because I was thinking about how weird it was the first time, whatever, wrote it off, kept going about my day that night. I'm working at the pizza shop and I'm, I'm sweeping before we mopped the floors and I get a text from a girl that I used to work with totally outta the blue, hadn't talked for her in months. And she goes, Hey, I don't know if this is weird, but I just feel like I need to text you that it's okay if you need to slow down and if you need to not do as much. And, uh, some, you know, just encouraging thing. But that was the main thrust of it. And I was like, what a [00:36:00] funny coincidence that on the same day she's also texting me It's okay to slow down Zachary: You Julianna Tate Zoch: the next day. I'm, Zachary: Yep. Julianna Tate Zoch: I spoke in tongues crazy. Uh, the next day I'm back on campus. And my dad calls me outta the blue. My dad never really calls me, but he calls me outta the blue and he goes, Hey, you know, I was thinking that I know you're in school. And my husband had just quit his job to work at a coffee shop while he figured out like what he wanted to do. So my dad says, I know that, you know, you're in school and Jacob's, you know, in between, you know, jobs and, and figuring out what he wants to do. What if you guys move here? Jacob can, can, you know, come work with, with my dad at, at my dad's, um, mortgage business that he had at the time. What if Jacob comes to work with me? And I just think this would be a really great way for you to be able to slow down while you're in your grad program. And I was like, [00:37:00] I actually don't believe this stuff happens, and yet I'm having this experience of this repeated invitation. From fairly unlikely places like it. And so, uh, I, in some ways, to me, yeah, I think that kind of symbolizes the, the personal growth I had during the, during the M Div program is that Yeah, I did it 'cause I love school and, and the academic, you know, preparation and things and, and I, I valued that, but I also did it just for me just because it was kind of like my last ditch effort of figuring out was I gonna stay or was I gonna, you know, reorient my whole life outside of everything I'd ever known up to that point. Finding Life in the Forest --- Julianna Tate Zoch: And, uh, there were just these different experiences throughout the program that I thought, okay, okay, there's something in this that feels different, that still [00:38:00] feels inviting and I don't feel like. I don't feel like I have to, to go back exactly to how things were, you know, with that original imagery of, okay, so I'm in the forest and it's lonely and dark and totally foreign and I don't know what to do. And there were these people who every now and then were just coming up next to me and just kind of like holding a lamp so that I could just see a little bit and see that I wasn't alone, that there was someone next to me that, you know, the ground beneath me, I couldn't see the whole thing, but it was there. Even when it didn't feel like it, I could see it's there. Um, and that, you know, I, there was some type of hope to keep going. Uh, and over time, you know, the, the imagery, especially within kind of the five year chunk of when I started the master's program and then after, just continued to kind of expand of, okay, maybe there's like a lot of life here. Maybe there are actually a lot of pockets of people [00:39:00] who. Haven't like set up camp here in some kind of like, they've given up kind of way, but have found that like the forest is the whole point that exploring all these things that is in life and spirituality and that it's kind of all the same and that, you know, to have a meaningful life. Like they've settled here because this is actually home. This is actually how, you know, we're invited to experience life and each other and God and, and faith and maybe that's beautiful. And so I, there are just all these little invitations that kind of added up to, oh, people don't go back because it's actually a really beautiful out here. And that's like, that's okay and it's okay that it doesn't have clear parameters. Zachary: and scary Julianna Tate Zoch: even if sometimes Zachary: it's dark Julianna Tate Zoch: Right. I. Zachary: mysterious and anything can happen [00:40:00] and Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. And every now and then, you know, we find those pockets of people to, to be with within it, and there are these spots of these, these, these bright spots within it, you know? The Margins Are Where Insight Comes From --- Zachary: You know, I mean, I, I just think that that is true. And also I think that that realization of being kind of out on the margins or being in the wilderness, it's really baked into the whole tradition if you're paying attention to it. Um, even just in the narrative stories of like, Abraham called out to do this wilderness wandering. Israel called out of, know, society to wander in the wilderness. and just, I mean, John the Baptist, the prophets, Jesus spent a lot of time out there. and there's really not a lot of insight in the scriptures that comes from people who are [00:41:00] very comfortable with the, quo and comfortable within the structure in the system. You could argue that the exceptions to that would be David and Solomon, but um, then you could also count to argue that how much of that actually was written by them. and then even just in church history, like we've studied church history, it's very rare that we are quoting Popes and Bishops as people who Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: spiritual insight that carried across time and we're still finding value from it today. It's like I don't hear a lot about Popes in terms of their. Their impact on the spiritual journey. I hear a lot about people who said, this is messed up. I'm gonna go live out in the desert. And I hear Julianna Tate Zoch: Okay. Zachary: the Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: and mothers. I hear about St. Francis and Ignatius and, um, all those guys, you know, um, people who are just [00:42:00] like, Nope. The, the wilderness, the desert on the fringes, on the margins. Uh, it's where, it's where it's really at. so anyways, that's just, I think it's baked into the whole tradition Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: yeah, it's, I don't know if I could go back if I even wanted to. Um, sometimes I do want to, Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: um, sometimes it would, it's like, man, it would be really nice to just go back to thinking more simply and not questioning things and just being. But then again, would it really like, I guess not. Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: and it does that, that thought Julianna Tate Zoch: Yeah. Zachary: take very long before I'm like, no, it's better out here. Even though, though it's dangerous and scary and there's not a lot of things to really like hold onto, um, it's still worth it being out kind of out at sea. there's [00:43:00] beauty and wonder to Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: but there's also danger and mystery. So, Julianna Tate Zoch: Right. It and it, and it feels more real, you know, at least in my experience, you know, it's, I, I enjoyed how my faith was in high school in particular, and, um. At the, I haven't always been grateful, grateful for it, but I think at this point I am grateful for it. Um, and it's still true that everything, even though there's, even though there's less structure to what I experience now, even though there are, there are more, um, you know, ebbs and flows to how much I'm experiencing things or how much I'm wanting to do different things, um, it, it does feel more real and feels more vivid than anything I experienced growing up. Zachary: how my limited understanding is that like in Amish communities, [00:44:00] um, they give people like a certain period of time to like leave the community. And go experience, you know, life out and the rest of the world and the rest of society. Um, which is fascinating to me because, know, like you mentioned a little while ago, we grew up in, you know, very restricted communities with certain set of beliefs and it was Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: Hey, at some point we're gonna let you go out and experience this, this other way of being. And Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: that our way of life is so good that you'll just naturally wanna come back. Which I do kind of feel like is maybe the Amish mindset there. It's like, sure, go out, experience it, know what you're missing and then you'll, you Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: really find value in this way of life, which we think you will, uh, we trust that you'll come back to it. What do you think it says about a faith tradition or a community or culture? [00:45:00] the only way they know how to keep people in it is to scare them from going outside of that, outside of those walls Julianna Tate Zoch: Hmm. Zachary: to keep them inside. 'cause it almost says to me, like the unspoken assumption that we know if people go out and experience other ways of being, we know they're gonna want to stay because what we've taught them is not compelling enough draw them back in based on its own merit. But I don't know, I mean, I'd be curious to know what you think about that. Julianna Tate Zoch: Fear and Institutional Control --- Julianna Tate Zoch: Yeah, I, I think that's part of it. I, I think it's possible. It's part of it. I think a lot about it as, as just fear, you know, of a. If, if I don't say, here are the parameters and here are the things to do, and here are the rules to follow, and here's how we act, here's how we behave, here's how we do this as a community. Then what [00:46:00] if our community disagrees? What if, what if it's not clear? What if, you know, we, I think part of it at a, at a institutional level is that there's money involved. We need this many people in seats because we need this many people giving money because we need to pay these people. I think some people, some places, I think that is just, um, how do I wanna say this? I think sometimes that is just the twisted intent is just to keep people there. And I think for other people it's just like, it's just like me trying to budget. I need a certain amount of income. I need a certain amount of things to make sure I keep my car, that I keep my house, that I have health insurance, all these things. And so, you know, I think there just is an unfortunate mingling of, well, you don't keep a large group together by encouraging them to [00:47:00] wonder and do things their own way. You keep a large group of people together by telling them, here's what you have to do and what we can provide for you in return. If I tell you that you can do things however you'd like, that you can follow your desires and God's personal invitations, then I can't tell you what you get in return for that. I can't promise you anything, but I can promise you, you have people who can help you watch your kids. If you're in a small group with other families, I can promise you that. You can feel like you're part of something bigger if you volunteer to, to, you know, teach the Sunday school or to be part of the greeting team or you know, whatever, like I can promise you things in return for that. When you're doing the behavior that I ask of you, I can tell you what you'll get. So I think that's in some ways it's just, it's just basic how you keep a group together. Freedom and Virtue --- Julianna Tate Zoch: The other piece that I spend a [00:48:00] lot of time thinking about just in life in general is, um, in, in grad school we talked about, I think if I remember correctly, it's kind of like the definition of freedom within virtue theory. And so basically the, the premise is that we tend to think about freedom, especially in the States as I can do whatever I want. Freedom is in this moment, I can punch someone in the face. Or I can walk away, right? And so, you know, if I choose to punch him, well I'm free to do that. I have free will, I have freedom. However, in, in virtue theory, what, and what I remember being taught, the actual notion of freedom is the type of life you want to live. And so freedom is a way of living, a way of being. It's okay, I want to live the kind of life where, [00:49:00] I don't know, let's use a rudimentary example, like with money, right? I wanna live the type of life where I can go on a vacation with my family for a week each year, and we can just be totally relaxed. No one has to work. We don't have to worry about, you know, pinching pennies the whole time. Okay? Well if, if freedom is, I get to have this experience, then freedom also means I'm not going to. Buy a car that's $300 above the budget that I can reasonably afford. I'm not going to buy a new TV just to have it, you know, it's, and I'm not talking about the whole, like, don't have a cup of coffee so you can buy a house. Right. I'm just talking about like, like practically speaking. Right, Zachary: geez. Julianna Tate Zoch: right. So, okay, let's not, let's not take this too far. Uh, and there's something to say about, you know, if, if you, our professor would use this example of if [00:50:00] you wanna be, you know, a professional ballerina, if that's the life you want. If freedom is a life of, of dancing, of being pa this is your profession, then you follow a certain diet, you follow a certain practice, you know, rehearsal regimen. You, you do your stretches every night. You learn how to put your hair up in a bun. You, you know, you do all these things so that you can live into that type of life. I think that's part of it too. I think there's this idea that, that freedom is, I get to choose to follow all of these rules for the sake of following these rules, or I choose not to, Zachary: Yeah, Julianna Tate Zoch: I get kicked outta the camp when freedom actually is. What kind of life do we wanna live together as a community? What kind of life do I wanna have as an individual? Do I wanna have a life where I'm worried about checking off all the boxes and doing everything right? Or do I wanna have a life where I actually experience the fullness of the gift [00:51:00] of being human? Zachary: you kind of describing the difference Julianna Tate Zoch: I, Zachary: this idea of freedom being, well, I gonna do what I want when I want wherever I want, because I want to, you're actually describing there is being a slave to your. and Julianna Tate Zoch: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Zachary: it feels good in the moment to give into an impulse, but when you stop and think about, at least when I stop and think about it, it's not, and sometimes it is, but my momentary impulses are not always aligned with what my actual values are. Um, and Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm. Zachary: if I wanna live the life I wanna live, I wanna live a life that's most aligned with my values. Uh, I actually have to say no to my momentary impulses, instant gratification impulses, and I have to discipline myself and even sometimes submit myself to the will or the guidelines or the boundaries of [00:52:00] other people or communities or things like that so that my higher values, what, what's most true about me can be embodied and expressed in my daily life. and I think that, I think that you're right. I think. If you're not careful, you can say, oh, well religious communities are too constricting. 'cause they do have, you know, they do have statements of faith. This is what we believe. And they do have, you know, uh, they do have ethical codes. You know, like if you're a Christian, hopefully you're ethics largely comes from the Sermon on the Mount, you know? Um, I wonder if the difference there is that when you institutionalize something like that and you bring money and power into the mix, then those Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: and those guidelines and those, you know, creeds or codes for living become less about [00:53:00] enabling people to flourish in community and more about maintaining power and control. Julianna Tate Zoch: Yeah, that reminds me of, uh, there was a sermon I preached once, I think it, I think it was when I was still in undergrad, but the, it was about, I don't remember the exact text, but it's when Jesus is, is talking about like the purpose of the law and how the law like basically comes to give life. So like all of like the Hebrew scripture in particular, like all of the, you know, the commandments and all those things that they, they come to give life. And I was talking to one of my professors about it because the, the language is a little confusing. It's, it's a tough passage to preach. And what he was saying to me was that in his understanding, what Jesus was saying is like the, the law serves as kind of. These guideposts of sorts. Okay, here's generally where you go that you, you know, to, to be on this way of like that [00:54:00] free full life. But they're not meant to constrict. And I think so often we just think, well, okay, if I wanna, if these are the guidelines, then I should make 'em like even tighter so that I can't accidentally, you know, it's, it's the, the rules about, you know, okay, don't have, don't have an affair. Great. Good rule in favor of that rule personally. But then we turn it into, do not go to lunch with a coworker who's of the opposite sex to talk about work-related things or not work-related things. If you, I worked at a place, or I did an internship at a, at a church once where if we were, if a group of us were, you know, going offsite somewhere for a lunch, a meeting, whatever. If it was just me and like one man who were ready to go at the same time, we had to drive separately. You cannot ride in the same car if it's just you. So we turn this good rule of honor your spouse, bring life and [00:55:00] love and goodness into this, this, this commitment, this relationship. We take that rule about prioritizing this person that you've, you've committed your life and your love to, and we turned it into a rule about your car. And so it's, and that might sound contradictory to what I was saying before about like to live this free life, but Zachary: in the same car, could lead to sex. And the problem with sex is that leads to dancing. Julianna Tate Zoch: Exactly. Zachary: We Julianna Tate Zoch: And we cannot dance. I don't know. I don't know what it's gonna take right. For people to understand that we can't dance Zachary: . I remember. Can't be in the same room. You can't. it, and if anything like that did happen by accident, everyone was like, oh, I wonder what happened. like nothing. Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: I don't, yeah. It's just we add all Julianna Tate Zoch: Right, right. And Zachary: uh, fear, like you said, [00:56:00] fear and some people do take advantage of situations and there's um, there's bad actors. Julianna Tate Zoch: Right. There's a wisdom to be had about any interaction, but there's, I think. Uh, because I'm aware that I, I think that can sound a bit contradictory to what I was saying before about, you know, if you want a particular type of life, you will have things. What I think my problem is with the rules being about, you know, how you'll act with other people is it's not really often that we talk about, well, if you want a marriage that is full and good and enjoyable and able to withstand hardship and struggle, then here are the types of things you do in your marriage with your spouse. Here are the ways that you bring life into that relationship. So it's, it's, it's, you know, the, if the goal is a type of life with your spouse, and then all of your actions have to do with how you'll act with other people, [00:57:00] then all of your attention is on the people who you shouldn't be in a car with instead of. Tending vs. Avoiding --- Julianna Tate Zoch: Uh, how can I express like my devotion and love for this person? How can I, uh, be part of this relationship? So it's, you know, there's, the focus is, is different. 'cause it's not a focus of avoiding a certain thing, it's a focus of, um, Zachary: Yes. Julianna Tate Zoch: tending to the thing that, that you're saying matters. Zachary: on that note, what are you tending to today? So asking you to give your confession of faith for the rest of your life or even the rest of the year, but what do you believe today? Julianna Tate Zoch: Hmm. [00:58:00] What I Believe Today --- Julianna Tate Zoch: You know, through all of the last, what has it been now, like 13 years? The thing that I've that've really continued holding on to, it's just how beautiful it is that there's always like the possibility of new life. Like, I, I think like that's kind of the whole thing, right? Is, you know, earlier we were talking and I thought about the Israelites, you know, wandering in the desert, and there's a moment when, there's probably many moments, but we, we have a story of them saying, you know, it would've been better if we'd stayed in Egypt. Basically, the slavery sucked, but at least we knew we'd get three meals a day. And I've been there, right? Like, I've been like, man, yeah. Like maybe I, maybe I wanna go back to how things were. Um, but the promise there is if you keep going, like, I, you know, I like hero Israel. [00:59:00] I am the Lord, the Lord to God. I'm the God who brought you out of Egypt. Like, I have good things for you. It's, I think we see that story over and over and over again through scripture of exactly when you think that there's no new life. Like that's where you can expect it. It's, it's Mary standing outside of Jesus's tomb. And, and she's crying and telling this gardener, they've taken my Jesus from me and I don't know where to find him. And then it's the gardener saying her name, just Mary and her realizing, oh, this is Jesus where I didn't expect him. And so. Uh, the, the deep hope of that, like this hope that can hold both like disappointment and grief and the possibility of new life exactly. Where we don't exactly where we, where we're tempted to stop believing in it. Um, [01:00:00] man, that's what I believe in. I believe in, in new life popping up over and over and over again, uh, in new ways where I don't expect it. Love Deepened Through Crisis --- Julianna Tate Zoch: And, um, and I, and I do keep seeing it, you know, I keep seeing it. There's about, just over a year ago, um, my dad had a really big health scare and, um, man, it was like one of the, one of the worst experiences of my life. You know, a bit about it, but, um, it's this moment of. Of deep concern and fear and these, you know, images that aren't ever gonna leave my brain, I don't think. Um, and in the weeks that followed when my mom and I for at least a week, if not two, afterwards, kind of took turns at night staying awake to, to keep watch over my dad. It was these moments of, [01:01:00] you know, he was sleeping. We weren't talking, but just feeling my love for him deepen just by being present with him and getting to watch these tender moments and to see now, you know, that in some ways his demeanor has changed and he was already like a, a wonderful dad, a tender man. But to see him become even more tender and to see how, um, our experiences together are, are enriched. And so, you know, how could a good thing come from such a scary experience? I don't know, but I always try to hang on, hold onto the hope that it will. Um, even if, even if the worst had happened and he had died and it took decades for something, some type of hope to, to become a parent to me, I still wanna hold on the possibility that it, that it can and will happen. And I do believe [01:02:00] in the value of that. Um, Zachary: Yeah. Julianna Tate Zoch: so, The Pattern of Life, Death, Resurrection --- Zachary: Thank you for sharing. And yeah, I, I, I agree with you. I, one of the things I can confidently say that I do believe in today that pattern of life, death, resurrection. And Julianna Tate Zoch: mm-hmm. Zachary: that that is always a possibility and that it's kind of the pattern. I think that is just, that's the, the pattern of the universe. It's a cyclical pattern of there's always new life that is possible, um, on the other side of death. And I think we all experience it, whether we have an awareness of it or not. But I do think that a awareness of it and a hope for the possibility of it enables us to experience it more consciously. [01:03:00] And the more consciously we do experience it, I think the more we enjoy it, the more we benefit from it. The less cynical we become, the less angry we become, that we can move through life's hardest moments, moments of death, grief, loss, disappointment, frustration. We can move through those things, not necessarily, you know, not being impacted by them or feeling the depths of the pain that those have, but at the same time, Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: holding onto a hope and a sense of love, um, and maybe a sense of peace that doesn't negate it, but that somehow in a mysterious, paradoxical way, we can hold them both at the same time. And, Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: you know, maybe people understand what that like. I imagine people probably do, if you did a, you know, a, just a, a contemplative sit or journaling. A where you wanted to sit back [01:04:00] and of the moments in your life where you felt hope or peace or love in a really difficult moment didn't, again, negate the hardship of that moment, but just kind of came up alongside it. Uh, I think that there's always more of that that's available to us if we believe in the possibility. Julianna Tate Zoch: Yeah. Yeah. And when we're, and when we're tuned into the possibility, when we're open to it, excuse me, um, we can notice it when it pops up. 'cause some, some of it is just being able to say, you know, I don't know. I don't know if there's, if there's new life here, I don't know if I'll ever think that this is possible, but I'm open to it. And then when. Uh, you know, I when when you're surprised by like, you know, a friend comes over and, and you laugh really hard and you're in the middle of like, some big thing of grief, but you have this laughter, it's the laughter [01:05:00] doesn't negate the grief, but you go, oh, this was a little bit of life. And I'm, and I'm open to noticing those things. Um, and it doesn't mean it solves everything. It just helps us be aware of the full spectrum and Zachary: Yeah. Julianna Tate Zoch: remain hopeful because we're noticing, okay, okay. There are some other things happening here too. There is a whole spectrum that I'm experiencing. Um, it it, and it's a gift when the friend comes over and makes us laugh. Zachary: And I think Julianna Tate Zoch: So. Zachary: is the reason that no matter what has happened to me, and no matter what will happen, I don't think I'll ever be able to get away from the story of Jesus. Um, because. It has mediated that truth to me more profoundly than any other story or any other mediator has. And I'm not saying there's not [01:06:00] other, you know, possibilities. Maybe there are, but just that story of, the life of Christ and life, death, resurrection, hope, um, and this idea that is more powerful than death. not even maybe necessarily in that death has defeated, which I guess you could say it Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: but I think defeated maybe not so much in that it has been destroyed. You know, I don't know if death has died or been, because I mean, I don't, people are still dying, you know? Um, I don't have any disillusions that I won't die. Uh, I, I, I don't know if you were raised with this. Sense of like, now we're the last generation and if we're really lucky, we won't have to die. You know? 'cause Jesus is gonna come back anytime. And so I remember really hoping for that. Julianna Tate Zoch: Nope. Zachary: now.[01:07:00] Julianna Tate Zoch: I think I like just missed the window of like the, like the left behind series and things like that. I think my oldest sister was kind of aware of them, but Zachary: Well, Julianna Tate Zoch: missed me. Zachary: I'm pretty sure I'm gonna die. Um, but I'm okay with that. Julianna Tate Zoch: I'm really sorry to say that. I think you will too. Zachary: my understanding now of what it means that love conquers death is that death is not done away with death is transformed. It's no longer a Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: It has been repurposed into a, a transformative thing through which new life, is possible on the other side of, Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: but yeah, I'm, I'm with you. I believe in that and, you know, my engagement with that story and my, my trust and faith in the Christ, you know, looks very different than it used to. And it will probably continue to look different, but it [01:08:00] holds me to that belief and. The, always the possibility and the hope of, of new life uh, yeah. So it's, it's a beautiful thing. Death as Transformation --- Julianna Tate Zoch: Right. Yeah. And I, and I think it's, it's such an invitation just for, just for all the different types of loss we experienced. You know, like there's, I think my understanding of death and new life for a long time was, you know, that it, it was just my physical. Death at the end of my life, and then that I would be resurrected, whatever that looks like in heaven. However, that, uh, however that looks, I'm not gonna know, but, uh Right. Like, who knows? Who knows? And, and because like, who knows? Like, it, it gives me, yeah, like this hope for the future, but then also goes actually, like, maybe that's also what Jesus was talking about when he said like, take up your cross and follow me to people who are very much alive. Maybe it's, you know, [01:09:00] allow your idea of how you were supposed to be, allow your idea of how life was supposed to be, allow that to die so that you can see the beauty of another way. Um, and so it's, you know, this death of a dream, death of a version of yourself who you can't be anymore, or who you, you know, who you've realized you can't become or, or whatever death of. Um, I don't know, death in terms of like just how your life is if you lose your job and then everything gets turned on its head. Like all of these forms of losses are okay, well, no less brutal. And yet if I can let go of how I thought my life was supposed to be or how this particular thing was supposed to be, then, then I could become more fully present to what is becoming, uh, and be open to it as opposed to just hanging on to what I've lost, which [01:10:00] I think I hear you doing a lot within the premise of this podcast in general is okay. It's not what I don't believe anymore. It's not the version of belief that I lost. It's not like the death of, you know, Zach's old way of being. It's okay on this side of having lost how I thought things would be, where is their life and goodness and belief and hope now. Uh, and I think that's what it's all about. Zachary: Moving Through Grief --- Zachary: I think. And you could just bring in that metaphor of the stages of grief. And I think with this whole deconstruction thing, it, it applies really well. There's, you know, there's denial and then there's, uh, you know, there's the angry stage, which I think most people are just kind of stuck Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: And then there's, maybe there's the acceptance phase, or I am, I'm actually revealing that I don't have the memorizes, the stages of grief, but you get what I'm saying, right? There's all these different phases of grief Julianna Tate Zoch: [01:11:00] Mm. Zachary: um, I don't think there's a lot of helpful guidance on what it looks like to okay, like, grieve, we grieve well, there was something that's been lost. There is something that has been lost. But the point is now to, and, and maybe in some ways we'll never stop grieving. And at the same time, the invitation is, let's move on. Let's move forward. Let's find life again. Let's find Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: We cannot, you know, stay stuck, just mourning what has been, uh, life is available to us now and possibilities are available, uh, uh, moving forward in the future. and that's what I am trying to do with myself. Um, angry for a long time. Um, even, I Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: even in ways I didn't realize that I was angry. Um, I think sometimes the only ways we, [01:12:00] we know where we're angry is when we're just feeling that very visceral, emotional reaction Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: But I've noticed that all kinds of different ways that anger has surfaced in me, in, in ways that I didn't notice as anger and just a need to criticize a need to, to share my opinion. A need to. I don't know, rehash things. I just, I need to be right and, um, I need to talk about certain things. Um, and, and all have expressed itself as, you know, unrecognized forms of anger. But when you move on from that, you realize that your, your interests shift a little bit. Your, where your mind goes shifts a little bit and the things you wanna talk about, uh, shift a little bit too, and you, you move towards, like, let's, let's talk about what is good, let's talk about what is helpful. Let's talk about where we actually are, not where we're not anymore. [01:13:00] And I think sometimes the, the internal life, you know, that that shift in your internal life comes out naturally in what you wanna talk about. But I also think that in choosing to talk about those things and choosing to focus on those things. That leads your internal self too, to kind of follow that path a little bit as well. So maybe that's what this podcast is an exercise Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: forcing ourselves to talk about those things so that that inner transformation continues to move in that direction. Julianna Tate Zoch: Turning Towards the Mystery --- Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was listening to a, um, I was actually listening to a church service the other day, which is I know crazy, uh, which I hone, I don't normally do. But, um, someone had texted like a pastor friend that I'm, that I know had texted me something that had happened with his church, and I couldn't tell if he was saying it happened to him personally or to his church. And so I thought, well, I'll just see. You know, if he was there that next Sunday and [01:14:00] 'cause that would tell me that it wasn't about him. 'cause there was no way he'd be at the church. This happening Anyway, so there's, as, as he was preaching, he was talking about how there had been a lot of of death in the church during that, I think just the week, but two weeks before of just people from all ages, you know, someone's grandfather had died, someone's like sibling had died. There was, um, a family who lost a baby within like a day after the baby was born that week. And this church was, it, it was actually really beautiful to watch like these church leaders like be legitimately emotional and, you know, they would, they would say, you know, if we have any visitors here, like, we're really not normally like this. We're just really hurting. And at one point the pastor in his sermon says like, you know, we're not normally like this. And also we are normally like this because like we do care. And anyway, he gets to the end of the sermon and he says, okay, we're gonna sing a few songs. And, um, [01:15:00] you know, you can sing along with them. And if, if you, if there are things in here that you can't sing that you, that you can't believe, then like, let them be a prayer. And if you can't believe 'em and you can't let 'em be a prayer, then just try to like physically, like turn yourself towards, I assume they have a cross in the room, but like, turn your turn towards Jesus and just, you know, have that physical turning. And I that just came to mind as you were talking then of, you know, within that internal thing of, okay, sometimes I can't believe it, sometimes I can't even pray it. And I'm trying to orient myself and my life in such a way that I'm at least open to it. Uh, and so like that spectrum is okay. Anywhere that you fall from enthusiastic confidence to, I'll turn one foot towards it, but I'm not turning both like which, wherever you fall, uh, man, that's just, that's [01:16:00] the experience of Zachary: Yeah, Julianna Tate Zoch: faith as a human being, and that's okay. Faith as Possibility --- Zachary: I think that's what faith really is, at least for me now. And maybe it's something else for other people, I'm not gonna try to tell people what, what it definitely is or isn't anymore. But for me now, it's not belief in the certainty of something. It's a willingness to believe in the possibility of something. Um. Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: I do think that is more so a choice than it is just whatever it happens to be that you are convinced of on a day-to-day basis. and so even on days when, you know, maybe I'm just like, I don't know if any of this is real, which sometimes I feel that way, you know? Uh, sorry if that's upsetting or shocking to anybody to hear that, but, Julianna Tate Zoch: I am Zachary: yeah, Julianna Tate Zoch: personally offended, but Zachary: but I Julianna Tate Zoch: you can keep going. [01:17:00] It's fine. Zachary: uh, I would encourage everyone to be honest with themselves and pay attention to themselves. And they probably admit that there have been times where they felt that way too. But on days when it's like, Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: know if any of this is literally true or not, I don't know if this is literally real or not. still say I have faith, because even on those days, I can choose to believe in the possibility that it is. And I can Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: believe and and live like it's possible, if I don't know for sure. Um, and to me that's what faith is. And I think that's where the fruit comes from, is, uh, belief in the possibility that there life on the other side of whatever it is that we're experiencing. I'll Never Regret Believing --- Zachary: And actually the, I'm not sure if you're a, a fan of, uh, Matthew McConaughey, but, um, his, uh, his autobiography is pretty interesting Julianna Tate Zoch: He's got this new book called Poems [01:18:00] and Prayers. Zachary: But what convinced me to read and get his poem book, which I like, he was on a podcast and he was talking about a bunch of different stuff and the guy said something about, you know, belief in God and all kinds of different things and belief in the afterlife. And at one point he just said something along the lines of, I think he was asked directly, like, do you, do you know that it's true? And he was like, I don't know. Julianna Tate Zoch: Hmm. Zachary: don't know, I know what I do know is I'll never regret believing that it was possible. I'll never regret believing that it's possible. And that line has just really struck with me and like, yes, that's what it's all about. It's a choice to believe in the possibility of, and, and resurrection. Because choosing to believe in that makes me the kind of person I wanna be in the world. Um, even if it Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: not being true, I'm not gonna regret that I believed that it was [01:19:00] possible because it made me into a loving person, a compassionate, more compassionate person, more open-minded, more understanding. And I know that even if there's nothing after this, embodying those to the best of your ability. That's how you make the most of only existence that maybe we have. Julianna Tate Zoch: Mm-hmm. Zachary: So, promo for Matthew McConaughey, that's why we're Julianna Tate Zoch: And that's why we're here, you know, now coming in. He's been waiting this whole time. But now we'll start our interview Zachary: and Julianna Tate Zoch: with Matthew. Zachary: to the podcast, Julianna Tate Zoch: Yeah. Zachary: Alright. All right. All Julianna Tate Zoch: So crazy. Zachary: But, um, I'll link that, that, uh, interview in the, uh. In the description, if anybody wants to read it. Julianna Tate Zoch: Don't listen. Zachary: well, um, any closing thoughts? Julianna Tate Zoch: Traveler, There Is No Path --- Julianna Tate Zoch: Hmm. You [01:20:00] know, before. We hopped on here. Uh, I was listening to a message you had sent me, and you referenced a poem that I sent you about Traveler. There is no path, so I I did bring that book up. Maybe I'll, maybe I'll read that. Would you be down? All right. Let's see. I marked it in my book. Okay, so it's titled Traveler. There is no road traveler. Your footprints are the only road and nothing else traveler. There is no path. The path is made by walking. As you walk, you make the road and turning to look back. You see a path that will never be traveled again. Traveler, there is no path, only a foam trail on the sea. When I came across that poem. Sometime [01:21:00] in the fall. Uh, I just felt so encouraged by it because sometimes it can feel like I just want a path to walk. I just want it to be clear how to, you know, at times I miss the structure that I, that I thrive in. I thrive in structure and I've chosen to keep believing in this expansive curiosity, wonderfilled, exploration of mystery. Um, and so that poem just resonated with me of, you know, it's, it's okay if there's no path. You're making the path and it's just a foam trail on the sea. It's not so permanent that you have to be worried about getting it exactly right. Um, 'cause it just exists in this space in this time. And I do think there's something beautiful about that. [01:22:00] So ​​